UPDATE: I fear that I have misrepresented the quoted commenter from my previous post. While I did not at all intend to do so, it seems like I made him out to be those who equate homosexuals with child molesters. What is especially unfortunate is I assumed that this person didn’t have any relational experience with gay friends. Sorry about that, Jason. I’d encourage people to read his though-provoking response. And note to other bloggers: email people to clarify their comment if you are going to quote them, especially if you are going to write a hyper-reactive post like mine!
I don’t want to keep beating this thing to death, so I’ll end this topic for a while with these words. My recent post on the need for a more inclusive response by the Church to the gay community garnered some insightful and interesting comments. Embedded in one of those comments was this oft repeated logic:
I totally agree with all who say that we should love and accept homosexuals but we’re certainly not supposed to tell them it’s ok to live in sin. We wouldn’t tell a child molester that it’s ok to molest children as long as you come to church on Sunday morning would we? We wouldn’t even allow them to entertain the thought!
This may go without saying, but let me say it just in case:
I don’t mean to rag on the person who wrote this comment (because he did agree that the Church’s response is a bit ridiculous), but to equate committed same-sex relationships (regardless of your hamarteological views) to child molestation is at best wholly uncharitable and worst completely crass and wretched.
I’ve heard this argument before and think it is totally stupid. Child molestation is heinously selfish and completely destroys the life of another human being. An adult uses a child for his or her own twisted desires with zero concern for the interests and well-being of the object to which his or her salivation is alleviated, and to continue equating this sort of act with committed same-sex relationships (and even the ‘acts’ of the gay community)
needs
to
stop!
I’m very familiar with the argument that certain Christians and groups use to try and equate gay relationships, irregardless of sexual activity, to something like adultery or molestation; it’s utter nonsense! My friends who happen to be gay (and Christian) are the farthest thing from either of these, love and follow Jesus and oftentimes model the love of Christ far better than me. And even those whom I know who aren’t necessarily Christians could/should hardly be compared in this fashion.
My guess is those who equate homosexuals with molesters have no relationships with these Others. How could they? It’s far easier to jingoisticly spray paint people with condemning graffiti when they are unnamed and at arms length than when you are in relationship with a name and a body and a story.
Here’s my advice for all you graffiti artists: step into the life of an Other; learn a name; embrace a body; grasp a story. Doing so will make it far harder to write-off the gay community as ‘unclean’ and may result in understanding, reconciliation, and even, perhaps, a friendship.
It is sad that many in the church don’t see a different. Shoot, when I was on the exgay path I used to say those same types of things, although with a bit more compassion (but not much). It was unfathomable to me that something so “sinful” could have any redeeming value. Now that i’ve come to accept my sexuality and realize that i’m still a Christian… its change alot of things for me. My attractions aren’t the evil things many make them out to be. And if I do enter into a same sex relationship, it will be in a committed manner with another follower of Christ who I choose to share my life with and together (just like any other couple) we will serve the Maker to the best of our ability.
I don’t think too many child molesters are concerned with that…
I am with you loud and clear, Jeremy. Pomoprophet, blessings to you. You have a lot of beautiful courage and humility. I hope you find someone wonderful.
Well, this is all a matter of perspective, isn’t it? Just the other day I finally experienced something that my fiance has been living with for years, and now I understand her struggle in a whole new way. My response to her has changed as my empathy and wisdom has gone through the roof. There is nothing I could have done before to understand better either, and this is bothersome to me. I want to understand everything well.
Alas, we humans are not much (or any) wider than our own personal experiences. We are trapped in that sense, and I think we have the task of remaining humble about our state.
I have lived the gay and ex-gay journey, but I have no clue what it would be like to feel sexual attractions to children. I think it is pretty presumptuous to say what these folks are or aren’t concerned with. I know PomoProphet is just saying that criminals who are going to harm other people are not trying to serve God to the best of their abilities at the time of their offense, and this is stating the obvious. So I agree.
But I hope we all see that sin is sin, and we all have struggles that we do not perfectly overcome. Yet a man who is attracted to little boys (or girls), and has acted out criminally, must perfectly change. The fact is, some folks struggle with things that are dangerous to society and thus cannot be tolerated. I don’t know what to do with that, except love those people too and hope for their healing.
This doesn’t mean let their actions go without consequence. In fact, I believe in prison–even the death penalty. It just means I want them to know Christ, The Restorer, just as I do. I believe in the changing, healing power of Jesus Christ.
So agreed. Those who are attracted to children and those who are attracted to their same gender should not be compared, beyond how the Bible compares all of us. Yet it is how the Bible compares all of us that brings some understanding.
I pray the message of healing and restoration and change and forgiveness is never lost.
~Just my thoughts,
Chris
“Embedded in one of those comments was this oft repeated logic:”
But then … it’s not logic. It’s a strawman or logical fallacy. It looks good. It sounds good. But you said it yourself … a committed homosexual relationship is even in the same galaxy as pedeophilia. Hell, even serial dating homosexual relationships are not the same pedeophilia.
The problem is that people feel the need to tell others when they are sinning. But not, if it includes gluttony, lying, cheating on their taxes, etc. The need to play Holy Spirit in someone else’s life apparently only applies when the sin turns to sex of the homo variety or when a woman tries to take control of her life and her body. All other sins are merely spoken of behind one’s back.
There is no real agreement on whether or no homosexual relationships are sinful. I’m not certain that they are. Even if they are, as Jemila so powerfully wrote, I’m fairly certain most believing homosexuals have wrestled with this issue and God … who am I to step in there and try to tell them something new?
Just a couple thoughts…
1. The word homosexuality is deceiving. The problem: sexuality is in the word it self, when homosexuality is not immediately about sex. It is about how people fall in love. So when we see lists of things not to do in the sex talk in Sr. High Sunday School, we see all in the same list bestiality, pedophilia, homosexuality, etc. Lumping homosexuality/bisexuality is heavily damaging to the church because unlike other acts which may be purely sexual in nature, homosexuality really isn’t dominantly driven by sexual desires.
2. This whole argument reminds me of the “homosexuality” Paul was preaching against in the new testament. Mainly prostitution between an older “dominator” and a younger “dominated.” He speaks against this because these actions are cheapening something God made beautiful. This dominator/dominated idea is at least in my experience what most Christians think about when “homosexual” enters their mind. Of course, that kind of practice is against Christian teaching ultimately because love is not involved- just sex.
Anyway, all to say, homosexuality is not sex between same sex couples. Rather it describes how Love (big L love) is shared.
NOT ALL HETEROSEXUAL MEN ARE WIFE-BEATERS, EITHER. 🙂
Ironically, most child molesters are heterosexual men, as I understand it. All of the homosexuals that I know are splendid people whom I would be more than happy to leave my children with.
The problem comes mainly with people who keep themselves insulated from real people. People who don’t interact with homosexuals (as far as they know) and therefore have a lot of strange ideas about them.
real live preacher,
Jeremy and I were talking today and echoed your observation: “The problem comes mainly with people who keep themselves insulated from real people.” When we see a face, say a name and hear a voice, the dynamics of “the issue” change for the better…most of the time.
I disagree, Jeremy, as I should, since I’m the one you quoted in this post. I’d like to say first thing that you have presumed that I am one of “those who equate homosexuals with molesters” and “have no relationships with these Others”. But, you have judged me incorrectly. I do in fact have friends who are gay and who confess that Jesus is Lord, two of whom I was good friends with and one of whom I was very close to. He and I met soon after he was ostracized from a local church after coming out, not simply because he is gay but because he was a youth leader in that church and that church isn’t (and no church should ever be) in the business of keeping openly practicing gay people on the payroll. A church leader who is living openly in sin sends the wrong message to the congregation, don’t you think? We quickly became friends and slowly developed a relationship in which many, many deep things were shared. We worked together and we exhausted this subject many times, and so many things I’ve heard here are the same heresies he began to believe simply so he could give justification for giving in to the sin that he knew was wrong. He and I are still friends.
So you see, Jeremy, I’m not the silly little self-righteous new convert you think I am. I have friends who are being lied to by people who think they have found some “new light” and are trying to bring their so called “real Christianity” to the general public, even though it’s contrary to the “old Bible”.
Homosexual behavior is sin and a result of the fall of man, and no matter what familial or biological background, there is no excuse for this behavior. Compare it with the disease of alcoholism, if you like. (And no, I am not calling homosexuality a disease, any more than I was saying it is the same as child molestation!) A person who struggles with homosexuality can find their true identity, and true satisfaction in Christ. Not that the desires will ever completely disappear but you can fight homosexual desires and live a chaste, moral life, or live within a Biblical heterosexual marriage until death in the power of Christ.
Above is mainly the point I tried to make in my last reply to your post but since you have misread and misquoted I feel that this should be clear enough for your readers, but so I can be sure I’ll say this:
SIN is SIN is SIN is SIN
Child pedophilia falls under the “sin” category the same as adultery and homosexuality, among other things. God intended that Man and Woman be united; this is the will of God for humans. Everyone knows pedophilia is unbelievably horrid—which was the same view of homosexuality in the past, only now we live in a degraded society where kids are growing up out of the context of a Biblical Christ-centered family, and the results are people who have serious problems all the way around and are doing all they can to find acceptance for who they are outside of Christ. These people are growing up and becoming the very building block of the future of this country, heck, of this world. And so you see Sonja, gluttony, greed, lying, and stealing get swept under the rug because essentially the church has a bigger fish to fry on the flames of a toxic culture that is being raised and praised in this day.
The very fact that we make child pedophilia out to be so harmful and so wrong makes for an interesting point. To my knowledge there’s nowhere in the Bible that even remotely says anything about controlling or dealing with or fighting the desires of a child molester, and yet you make it out to be so wrong that you wouldn’t ever compare it to homosexuality, when in fact, homosexuality is certainly, absolutely condemned in the Bible. Now how does that happen? Is it because you live in a world that hasn’t quite yet made child porn and pedophilia mainstream and so then there is no need for you to try and defend for your readers? Is it because the church continues to change along with this world instead of standing strong and not mingling with the nations?
It’s an interesting phenomenon.
And so what if homosexuals love people better than Christians do?? Isn’t that the root of these posts? Isn’t the church sucking in the love department? Man, I know atheists who will blow your mind and make you feel ashamed at their behavior and they don’t even believe in a “god”, so it doesn’t matter if homosexuals love better than Christians. It’s still not a get-out-of-jail-free card.
What needs to happen, Jeremy, is a revolution of holiness and godly living AND love in the face of a twisted world.
Jason
Hi Jason,
I do apologize if you feel like I misrepresented you in quoting from your original comment. But in your subsequent comment I think you make it pretty clear that you think homosexuality is sinful in the same sense that child molestation is sinful. But you see that was the original point of the quotation: I and others think it is uncharitable to equate the two regardless of whether it is or is not sin. (maybe that isn’t what you are doing, but it sure sounds that way, especially after your heavy-handed response).
I especially apologize if you felt like I assumed you were a “silly self-righteous convert” who had no relational experience with this issue. While I didn’t intend to direct this post at you in particular (though I can see in hindsight how you could feel that way given the fact I quoted you!) I do feel bad for assuming (which I did) that you have had no experience with people in the gay community. For that assumption I am sorry, Jason, and I thank you for sharing some of your story with regards to your own interactions with flesh-and-blood gay friends.
[BTW: I tried amending my original post to bleed out your quotation while trying to maintain my original argument, but I couldn’t work the language…so I hope me providing an ‘update’ reflecting your comments will suffice…]
I’ll be honest with you, I’m not sure where I ‘sit’ on this issue. I used to reflect much of what you wrote and actually worked for a very well-known evangelical political activist who died on this hill trumpeting a similar battle cry. But after entering into friendships with several gay people, and gay Christians in particular, and hearing their stories, hearing the stories of those beat-up by the Church and real people, WHILE ALSO attempting to wade through the biblical, historical, and contextual milieu surrounding homosexuality in the Text, I’m just not sure what a proper understanding of homosexuality is anymore.
So I sit in the tension of wanting to interpret the Text well (it may surprise you, Jason, but I have a high regard for God’s Text to Humanity and seek after a sound, proper hermeneutic) and the reality of my friend’s “pieces” that confuse and scare the shit out of them.
I’m swimming in the tension of balancing the Text with the very real and gritty stories of individuals, a very gray tension for me right now.
And, Jason, for me that is OK.
I’m OK with the tension and not having it figured out. What I’m not OK with is the alienation and the disbarring from community that the Church has caused. I am not OK with the irreconciliation that exists between the gay and Church community.
I respect your perspective, but I hope that you will respect my perspective (and Sonja’s for that matter) and others when you come to novus•lumen, rather than dismissing us as “trying to bring their so called “real Christianity” to the general public, even though it’s contrary to the “old Bible”.” It’s obvious you are passionate about people and God and His Text and Truth and seeing people restored spiritually and personally, but so am I and others…
Wow. This is heavy.
I like that this conversation is happening. I agree with Jason–somewhat, but also with Jeremy on this.
Regardless of what you think of the sin (I think it is one btw) the fact that there are people involved is really important. I have friends who struggled and one who was even in ministry. His evangelical church worked with him for over a year to allow him to explore counselors and other help. He decided he had to leave. He was not kicked out and would not have been. He was not in a relationship, so they saw no reason to make a big deal about–even the fact of his struggles. Bottom line, this was his choice and I was sad to see him take it.
He said to me at a fateful lunch at Chili’s “Rich, I think I am afraid to pull the weeds out of my heart since I will lose the flowers, too.” He clearly was sincere, yet made his mind up. This was only within a week of a friend at my church who said he could not keep away from the lifestyle anymore…he moved to the 3o miles to San Francisco and I lost contact with him. They got lost in the “lifestyle.”
Real people. Real sad. But, they made their own choice. The church in one case did not condemn, the other situation would have been the same. Often, our youth pastor with others would bring meals to AIDS patients. Come on, I live on the Left Coast people!
This debate involves real people. I am saddened by the consequences of this lifestyle on people I know. It is possible to think this life is sinful, while being gracious and loving and not disregard real people. At least, I have seen it work, even though I have heard the worst stories, too.
Jason, you said:
” SIN is SIN is SIN is SIN”
Yep … that’s true. And God has made it pretty clear that He views all sin as equal. So while we’re busy sweeping gluttony, lying, cheating, etc. under the carpet and not dealing with those issues … He still sees those problems. They still prevent those people from become Christ-like. You see, in the end … the whole problem is not our sexual orientation. It’s our utter depravity … and whether or not we are becoming more and more like Christ each and every day.
Every single one of us needs to be worried about that … not just people of different sexual orientation. That is what I think the problem is. We can’t fix a laser beam of sin management on those folks who struggle with their sexual orientation and ignore people who don’t struggle with other sins at all … they just continue on with the blessing of the church in their sins.
The child molester analogy is, as you say, terribly wrong. Even if one believes same-gender sex is contrary to God’s Word, it is not right to equate sex between two consenting adults and non-consensual sex between an adult and a child. Such thinking within the Christian community prevents us from building friendships with homosexuals and growing together in faith and in love.
I agree with Sonja. I struggle daily with sin in my life. Some may even make the “Big 7”. Why am I not ostracized and criticized as are some of my gay friends? I guess they just don’t want to tick off the old guy.
Well Jay, that’s a good question.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that whatever is going on inside a person is sometimes visible outwardly. The more visible, the more subject to ridicule something becomes.
For instance, the 700 pound man probably has a few issues that are obvious to the passerby. And the guy wearing pink tights and makeup to work, hissing at anyone who stares too long, is probably asking for trouble too.
I know those are extreme examples, but so much of gay culture is too. In addition, homosexuality is a politically charged issue right now, and the subject is in everyone’s faces. So you’re going to hear a lot of opinion from everyone–not just from the church.
Once this ceases to be a hot button issue, I’m sure things will settle down. Some. Still though, for Christians, the matter of homosexuality will probably always be a bit “special,” even though sin is sin. I think this, because homosexuality is not just one choice or one sin or one issue.
Some say that who you are attracted to is no big deal, and there is so much to life besides this tiny aspect. There is truth to this statement, but it is not the entire truth. The other side to the story is that who we are attracted to can change a lot about our lives.
People attracted to and pursuing their own gender romantically tend to wrap their lives around this. They often live in gay parts of town, vacation on gay cruises, eat at gay restaurants, attend gay churches, and generally have gay friends. So something that can change so much about a person is probably not altogether simple or small.
So it is a multitude of issues that are often outwardly displayed. It ins’t one “sin” that people need to just STOP and repent from. So those who say that the church needs to stop exalting homosexuality over one of the “7 deadly sins,” for example, needs to realize the obvious complexity here. With homosexuality, we’re more often than not talking about a way of living and thinking than we are about a particular sin.
So yeah, sin is sin. But I feel like that is sometimes a cop out to not think on this more complexly. Food is food. It is to sustain my body’s energy needs. But pizza is not a can of puppy chow, and I can talk about the differences without contradicting the fact that it’s all food.
Don’t misunderstand me though, I think it is important to remember how we are all similar–being all sinners having fallen short of God’s glory. But we can talk about differences too, can’t we?
Does it seem odd to anyone else that the same people who accuse the church of singling gays out as being uniquely sinful turn around and say the church unfairly compares them with other sinners?
~Just my thoughts,
Chris